on the Somali pirates...
"Good is good; evil is evil.
There can't be any moral justification
for piracy in modern times."
Dear Ola Kassim,
Taking even your words as gospel truth; the second sentence of the (with all due respect), grossly naive formulation to say the least, contradicts the first.
If good = good (no plus or minus) and bad = bad (simply the same thing as with the former), then what is good and what is bad is eternal, existing from whatever, whenever and wherever humans gained the knowledge of 'good' and 'bad' (some would say after Eve gave Adam that sweet fruit from the tree of knowledge...) and so will be until the endlessness of eternity, period. In that sense, what made piracy good (and mark you the powers that be then just as those of today never accepted it as good, even when they used pirates to fight their proxy wars in the Caribbeans -especially England vs Spain-), at a point in time but not now. Or to place what is implicit in your argument in a more explicit manner; why is it only in "modern times" (some would actually argue that these are post-modern times really (although not for Africa!), so let us simply read 'modern' here as 'contemporary') that there can be no 'moral justification' for piracy?
Also, what actually is piracy (in general)? and what is the nature of the particular 'piracy' that we are talking about here? Dr. Ojo posted a brilliant link of the Somali 'pirates' telling their own story. This is evidence, and as you would well be aware sir, knowledge is built on evidence and still more (counter-)evidence. In the face of primary sources which clarify what is actually the situation in the Indian Ocean (and the article also gave some insight into 'piracy' in general), mere opinions disintegrate like hot fart on an even hotter afternoon! What one would expect rather than the nursery rhyme of good = good and bad = bad, would have been an explanation on why what the teenage 'citizens' of a one-time state are doing, could be legitimately declared 'morally unjustifiable' beyond the rhetoric of buccaneers in power.
Before signing off, back to where we started from; 'good' and 'bad' are constructs, social inventions. Of course as communities, humans could not live without such value-laden constructs. The problem with engaging these constructs as being bereft of situation in time or locale is that it makes us blind to the power structures that come to define them over time. Why is it 'good' for the US to have nuclear power but it is 'bad' for Iran? Why is it 'good' for third world countries to have SAPs foisted on them for over a decade after the Pesos crisis of '82, but it was 'bad' to institute same for Iceland after it went burst last year? Why is it 'good' to bail out the banks (with their execs having golden parachutes), but 'bad' to let victims of foreclosures, keep living in their homes? Why is it 'good' for the CIA to be re-invested with the powers to assassinate heads of states of other sovereign states, but 'bad' for Pyongyang to flex its thingy missile biceps? Why is it 'good' for an infinitesimal minority of persons mainly located in the West to have caviar for dinner and 'bad' for millions of children in Africa to have a morsel to eat? and back to our story of robbers, pirates, cowboys, buccaneers, vikings, ole, barawo, and related tales; why is robbery and crass brigandage which secures a few millions for the pirates 'bad' but 'authority stealing' in the broadest sense of it 'good',? WHY?
As you can see, I have not even asked questions about the 'god' and 'bad' of the days of yore when as O'Brien put it 'stealing was legitimate', including of persons (trans-Saharan and trans-Atlantic slavery), lands (colonization), cultures (with coca cola, mcdonald's and co...on-going project) and of course economies (also on-going). Anyway sir, if it needs to be pointed out; the only reason why in International Relations it is taken as given that friendships and enmities are not permanent but interests are is because, power (both 'hard' and 'soft') and not morality justifies the actions of states in the final analysis.
You might disagree with my views, it is not unnatural for persons to disagree on issues. But, do not pass of opinions as divinely ordained truths......especially when they merely join Alice in wonderland in the face of stubborn facts.
My regards,
Baba Aye
************************************************************************************
--- On Mon, 4/13/09, Dr. ola kassim wrote:
Baba:
Good is good; evil is evil.
There can't be any moral justification
for piracy in modern times.
One can only wish the Nigerian navy could be just as
efficient (as the US navy). in parolling the Bight of Biafra and
the rest of Nigeria's Atlantic coast.
But that would be day dreaming; the Nigerian Navy is demoralized, undermanned, under-resourced.
and poorly equipped.
Bye,
Ola
************************************************************************************
This is between good and evil. There is no place for evil activities for the 21st Century
On this debate about pirates, buccaneers, America and Somalia, Nwokike's position above sums up the point of departure, in my own view, of the perspectives of those who have argued in defence of the Easter Sunday military action of the United States of (part of) North America.
It is also at the root of the fault lines of their argument. The stakes are not about good or evil; they are about economic and political (with politics considered as condensed economics) interests.
First, what led to Somali piracy? Did some young Turks from a Somali where jobs and infrastructure abound in a serene environment merely decide out of the evil in their hearts to take to high sea piracy? Obviously not! The near-stateless Somali society with disorder, hunger and soaring crime (no one talks now about the Somali-on-Somali murders for things as banal in some cases as a meal...), was a product of the US' entrenchment of Siad Barre (who interestingly died on Nigerian soil...a worthy testament to the kinds of friends our 'leaders' keep; show me your friend...). During the Cold War, Barre's Somalia was very crucial in the horn of Africa for the US (much like the way Osama Bin Ladin's Mujaheddin activities was then for the US in the Afghanistan). When the bottom came off the bucket, what touched the nose touched the eyes and the West now bears some of the flak of collapse that the Frankenstein it created is throwing right, left and centre...
The relation of this by Dr. Ojo to the likes of Drake and Blackbeard is not a backwards throw back through a time machine as Joe would want us to believe. There are still several pirates in the hedgefunds, and multinational corporations. There buccaneering is only now with more finesse. They are categorized as 'America's Most Innovative Companies' (what Fortune magazine called Enron before its collapse...) . A few like the Enron executives and in more recent time like Mardoff could be made fall guys for something more endemic when they stray too far into the waters of their collective piracy.
When we choose not to know when the rain started beating us, we will think we are still in the bathroom even when see lightening and hear thunder. We should not be deceived that because the mega-machinery of the media at the disposal of America's establishment legitimizes their nonsense. Why has non of the mainstream media details how American and Canadian troops have safeguarded the opium route for its allies in Afghanistan while attacking those owned by the Taliban (more information could be got by searching on this through the WSWS.org and 'realtv' sites)?
Both piracy and the American murder of pirates must be condemned. More importantly what led to the state of piracy must be examined and its root causes challenged, otherwise, we would merely be fighting the image in the mirror and not the substance that such an image merely reflects, even if with some elements of refraction.
Period,
Baba Aye
____________ _________ _________ __
Bravo!
Another African worshiper of the Great White Race has spoken.
Yes, Joe Igietseme, "White is ALWAYS right, and if you are Black, step back!"
Joe Igietseme, go and study some European history, and find out, who were these people:
Lord Luggard
Sir Francis Drake
Columbus...etc.
They were ALL EUROPEAN PIRATES that made Europe and the Europeans what they are today.
Quote me!
Dr. Valentine Ojo
Tall Timbers, MD
**********************************************************************************
On Mon 04/13/09 12:35 PM , "Igietseme, Joseph (CDC/CCID/NCPDCID) "
I find no justifiable sympathy for a mindless act of piracy and sea robbery that terrorizes international and maritime traffic. If you are ready to be a pirate, you should be prepared for the consequences. It is neither an African thing nor a black habit; it is piracy that MUST be handled for what it is. No sentimentality! Joe Igietseme
____________ _________ _________ __
A bloody rescue : Tactical success strategic bunder =paradoxical success?
"........This rushed military solution has taken three human lives on Easter Sunday. Yes, the Somali pirates are human beings too. They are undoubtedly outlaws, but so is Mr Maddow, so is Billionaire Sanford and all the CEOs who wrecked the American and Global Economy. .... .... What the Somalis demand and paid with their lives for is but a pittance compared to what Maddow stole......" AdeAjayi
My brother, Ajayi, I find your postulations and justification for international water terrorism by Somali pirates not to be touched , very disturbing. There is no comparison to alluding that the two situations are alike as you described it. The French did the same thing few few weeks ago when they blew up the pirates base to save four of their nationals held in captivity at their based by these morons and vandals called Somali pirates.
Unfortunately, the French lost one of their very own during the operation. The American Navy Seals did an incredible and marvelous job by they manners they handled this situation. When all reasoning failed for 5days, it was time to take actions. This is between good and evil. There is no place for evil activities for the 21st Century . This should send a serious signal to the pirates that piracy is illegal and it is time that they find other means of making livelihood than hijacking ships on high seas.
I believe also that it is time for the world and other Countries to start training their navy or other security operatives/apparatu s , to let the Somali pirates understand they cannot make a living from any kind of illegality on high waters. The world may have kept their cool for such a long time with the menace from these pirates and have lost so much money in ransom to these low level lives .
I must say that the war is not over yet, and the merchants should be prepared to slug it out with the pirates as from now on. Perhaps, suicide bombing will be their next strategy. But the world powers should brave up to blow these idiots up called pirates when they come closer to 1000 feet away from any ship with their boats , close enough to hijack them while these mechants are making legitimate passage on international waters.
Atty. Ralph Nwokike, Esq.
Seattle, Washington, USA.
There can't be any moral justification
for piracy in modern times."
Dear Ola Kassim,
Taking even your words as gospel truth; the second sentence of the (with all due respect), grossly naive formulation to say the least, contradicts the first.
If good = good (no plus or minus) and bad = bad (simply the same thing as with the former), then what is good and what is bad is eternal, existing from whatever, whenever and wherever humans gained the knowledge of 'good' and 'bad' (some would say after Eve gave Adam that sweet fruit from the tree of knowledge...) and so will be until the endlessness of eternity, period. In that sense, what made piracy good (and mark you the powers that be then just as those of today never accepted it as good, even when they used pirates to fight their proxy wars in the Caribbeans -especially England vs Spain-), at a point in time but not now. Or to place what is implicit in your argument in a more explicit manner; why is it only in "modern times" (some would actually argue that these are post-modern times really (although not for Africa!), so let us simply read 'modern' here as 'contemporary') that there can be no 'moral justification' for piracy?
Also, what actually is piracy (in general)? and what is the nature of the particular 'piracy' that we are talking about here? Dr. Ojo posted a brilliant link of the Somali 'pirates' telling their own story. This is evidence, and as you would well be aware sir, knowledge is built on evidence and still more (counter-)evidence. In the face of primary sources which clarify what is actually the situation in the Indian Ocean (and the article also gave some insight into 'piracy' in general), mere opinions disintegrate like hot fart on an even hotter afternoon! What one would expect rather than the nursery rhyme of good = good and bad = bad, would have been an explanation on why what the teenage 'citizens' of a one-time state are doing, could be legitimately declared 'morally unjustifiable' beyond the rhetoric of buccaneers in power.
Before signing off, back to where we started from; 'good' and 'bad' are constructs, social inventions. Of course as communities, humans could not live without such value-laden constructs. The problem with engaging these constructs as being bereft of situation in time or locale is that it makes us blind to the power structures that come to define them over time. Why is it 'good' for the US to have nuclear power but it is 'bad' for Iran? Why is it 'good' for third world countries to have SAPs foisted on them for over a decade after the Pesos crisis of '82, but it was 'bad' to institute same for Iceland after it went burst last year? Why is it 'good' to bail out the banks (with their execs having golden parachutes), but 'bad' to let victims of foreclosures, keep living in their homes? Why is it 'good' for the CIA to be re-invested with the powers to assassinate heads of states of other sovereign states, but 'bad' for Pyongyang to flex its thingy missile biceps? Why is it 'good' for an infinitesimal minority of persons mainly located in the West to have caviar for dinner and 'bad' for millions of children in Africa to have a morsel to eat? and back to our story of robbers, pirates, cowboys, buccaneers, vikings, ole, barawo, and related tales; why is robbery and crass brigandage which secures a few millions for the pirates 'bad' but 'authority stealing' in the broadest sense of it 'good',? WHY?
As you can see, I have not even asked questions about the 'god' and 'bad' of the days of yore when as O'Brien put it 'stealing was legitimate', including of persons (trans-Saharan and trans-Atlantic slavery), lands (colonization), cultures (with coca cola, mcdonald's and co...on-going project) and of course economies (also on-going). Anyway sir, if it needs to be pointed out; the only reason why in International Relations it is taken as given that friendships and enmities are not permanent but interests are is because, power (both 'hard' and 'soft') and not morality justifies the actions of states in the final analysis.
You might disagree with my views, it is not unnatural for persons to disagree on issues. But, do not pass of opinions as divinely ordained truths......especially when they merely join Alice in wonderland in the face of stubborn facts.
My regards,
Baba Aye
************************************************************************************
--- On Mon, 4/13/09, Dr. ola kassim wrote:
Baba:
Good is good; evil is evil.
There can't be any moral justification
for piracy in modern times.
One can only wish the Nigerian navy could be just as
efficient (as the US navy). in parolling the Bight of Biafra and
the rest of Nigeria's Atlantic coast.
But that would be day dreaming; the Nigerian Navy is demoralized, undermanned, under-resourced.
and poorly equipped.
Bye,
Ola
************************************************************************************
This is between good and evil. There is no place for evil activities for the 21st Century
On this debate about pirates, buccaneers, America and Somalia, Nwokike's position above sums up the point of departure, in my own view, of the perspectives of those who have argued in defence of the Easter Sunday military action of the United States of (part of) North America.
It is also at the root of the fault lines of their argument. The stakes are not about good or evil; they are about economic and political (with politics considered as condensed economics) interests.
First, what led to Somali piracy? Did some young Turks from a Somali where jobs and infrastructure abound in a serene environment merely decide out of the evil in their hearts to take to high sea piracy? Obviously not! The near-stateless Somali society with disorder, hunger and soaring crime (no one talks now about the Somali-on-Somali murders for things as banal in some cases as a meal...), was a product of the US' entrenchment of Siad Barre (who interestingly died on Nigerian soil...a worthy testament to the kinds of friends our 'leaders' keep; show me your friend...). During the Cold War, Barre's Somalia was very crucial in the horn of Africa for the US (much like the way Osama Bin Ladin's Mujaheddin activities was then for the US in the Afghanistan). When the bottom came off the bucket, what touched the nose touched the eyes and the West now bears some of the flak of collapse that the Frankenstein it created is throwing right, left and centre...
The relation of this by Dr. Ojo to the likes of Drake and Blackbeard is not a backwards throw back through a time machine as Joe would want us to believe. There are still several pirates in the hedgefunds, and multinational corporations. There buccaneering is only now with more finesse. They are categorized as 'America's Most Innovative Companies' (what Fortune magazine called Enron before its collapse...) . A few like the Enron executives and in more recent time like Mardoff could be made fall guys for something more endemic when they stray too far into the waters of their collective piracy.
When we choose not to know when the rain started beating us, we will think we are still in the bathroom even when see lightening and hear thunder. We should not be deceived that because the mega-machinery of the media at the disposal of America's establishment legitimizes their nonsense. Why has non of the mainstream media details how American and Canadian troops have safeguarded the opium route for its allies in Afghanistan while attacking those owned by the Taliban (more information could be got by searching on this through the WSWS.org and 'realtv' sites)?
Both piracy and the American murder of pirates must be condemned. More importantly what led to the state of piracy must be examined and its root causes challenged, otherwise, we would merely be fighting the image in the mirror and not the substance that such an image merely reflects, even if with some elements of refraction.
Period,
Baba Aye
____________ _________ _________ __
Bravo!
Another African worshiper of the Great White Race has spoken.
Yes, Joe Igietseme, "White is ALWAYS right, and if you are Black, step back!"
Joe Igietseme, go and study some European history, and find out, who were these people:
Lord Luggard
Sir Francis Drake
Columbus...etc.
They were ALL EUROPEAN PIRATES that made Europe and the Europeans what they are today.
Quote me!
Dr. Valentine Ojo
Tall Timbers, MD
**********************************************************************************
On Mon 04/13/09 12:35 PM , "Igietseme, Joseph (CDC/CCID/NCPDCID) "
I find no justifiable sympathy for a mindless act of piracy and sea robbery that terrorizes international and maritime traffic. If you are ready to be a pirate, you should be prepared for the consequences. It is neither an African thing nor a black habit; it is piracy that MUST be handled for what it is. No sentimentality! Joe Igietseme
____________ _________ _________ __
A bloody rescue : Tactical success strategic bunder =paradoxical success?
"........This rushed military solution has taken three human lives on Easter Sunday. Yes, the Somali pirates are human beings too. They are undoubtedly outlaws, but so is Mr Maddow, so is Billionaire Sanford and all the CEOs who wrecked the American and Global Economy. .... .... What the Somalis demand and paid with their lives for is but a pittance compared to what Maddow stole......" AdeAjayi
My brother, Ajayi, I find your postulations and justification for international water terrorism by Somali pirates not to be touched , very disturbing. There is no comparison to alluding that the two situations are alike as you described it. The French did the same thing few few weeks ago when they blew up the pirates base to save four of their nationals held in captivity at their based by these morons and vandals called Somali pirates.
Unfortunately, the French lost one of their very own during the operation. The American Navy Seals did an incredible and marvelous job by they manners they handled this situation. When all reasoning failed for 5days, it was time to take actions. This is between good and evil. There is no place for evil activities for the 21st Century . This should send a serious signal to the pirates that piracy is illegal and it is time that they find other means of making livelihood than hijacking ships on high seas.
I believe also that it is time for the world and other Countries to start training their navy or other security operatives/apparatu s , to let the Somali pirates understand they cannot make a living from any kind of illegality on high waters. The world may have kept their cool for such a long time with the menace from these pirates and have lost so much money in ransom to these low level lives .
I must say that the war is not over yet, and the merchants should be prepared to slug it out with the pirates as from now on. Perhaps, suicide bombing will be their next strategy. But the world powers should brave up to blow these idiots up called pirates when they come closer to 1000 feet away from any ship with their boats , close enough to hijack them while these mechants are making legitimate passage on international waters.
Atty. Ralph Nwokike, Esq.
Seattle, Washington, USA.
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